tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post92606566845799649..comments2023-11-26T21:10:30.470-08:00Comments on The Pasha and the Gypsy: South of Van (I): Diocletian's Castle (?)Gordon Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-20266193104682901672014-08-24T18:14:53.682-07:002014-08-24T18:14:53.682-07:00Many thanks, Mr. Rugby, for adding to the discussi...Many thanks, Mr. Rugby, for adding to the discussion. I'll look for the sources you cite.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-2791971859977095152014-08-24T09:33:40.424-07:002014-08-24T09:33:40.424-07:00Working actually on late roman fortification, i ma...Working actually on late roman fortification, i made research about the fortress knowned since 1986 in scientific publication as Gayda Kale expecting find pictures on internet. I found yours.<br />The site was visited by T. Mitford mid 80's, and he published this article.<br />T. Mitford (1986), A late roman fortress south of LAke Van, in Freeman P. et Kennedy D., The Defence of the Roman and Byzantine East. Oxford, 565-573. A more géneral studies about roman fortifications on the eastern frontier doubt about the roman date from this site. The site could be roman, once, but without excavations, it could be impossible to distinguish between waht could be roman and what could be medieval modifications. The ground inside the wall was higher then outside, this meens a long period of ocupation since the construction.Wallalabites Ugly Rugbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05581492234536766240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-1343864322002661212012-01-30T10:52:16.112-08:002012-01-30T10:52:16.112-08:00Such a great article it was which Such a place lie...Such a great article it was which Such a place lies south of Van, the massive high-altitude lake that is one of the jewels of eastern Turkey.In which photographs represent that massive widening of human perspective made possible by digital cameras and the Intern. Thanks for sharing this article.Sandyhttp://www.karynkelbaugh.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-68256711101166402562011-06-06T21:21:23.909-07:002011-06-06T21:21:23.909-07:00Jelle, In my travel atlas for Turkey (isbn 0-8416-...Jelle, In my travel atlas for Turkey (isbn 0-8416-0613-7, Langenscheidt), it does indeed show the site as "Eski Hizan." Due south of Hizan, on the track which leads from Hizan to Pervari, my map shows another castle called Giayda Kalesi. This no doubt would be in the Gayda valley, shown in the photo above by Mahmut Ozdemir. Do you know that castle?<br /><br />As to the "continuity of building techniques," that is also questionable. Sometimes in Anatolia they show great sophistication in the stonework, and sometimes they just pile up rocks and stick them together with mud. Elsewhere, you've posted a great shot of the church at Kocanis, Hakkari. Its stonework is superb, immaculate. In the valley of the river Savur, which flows north from Mardin to join the Tigris, I remember superb houses, well-proportioned, with classic arches and mortared stonework. At the village of Kespiyanish (Mutluca), near Beytussebap, the hovels were the usual construction. (I visited in 1977.) But the Nestorian church still stood, and its sophisticated construction convinced the local Kurds that these Christians had been very rich. For a big project like a castle, a wealthy sheikh might have brought in stone masons from Mesopotamia. As you say, I'd like to know more.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-47638651817858974692011-06-06T14:07:37.016-07:002011-06-06T14:07:37.016-07:00You're welcome Gordon, it is a fascinating sub...You're welcome Gordon, it is a fascinating subject. I am sure that there must be anywhere around a specialist on Roman architecture who could answer some of the questions you raise. A strong continuity in building techniques between Roman architecture and that of later periods would not surprise me at all.<br />One short note more: Kayalar was the name given by the state during the place name reforms of the early 1960s. Frankly, I do not know how the locals call the place. Maybe Eski (old) Hizan.Jelle Verheijnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-29646457937705262732011-06-04T16:44:53.642-07:002011-06-04T16:44:53.642-07:00Many thanks, Jelle, for your comments, and for tak...Many thanks, Jelle, for your comments, and for taking the time to teach me more about these things. I will look up the references you provide. It certainly is true that European travelers looked for classical antiquities above all else. Latin and Greek, after all, were the foundation of their education. I guess the question is, Was Dickson right about the "Roman" characteristics of these fortifications? Was it laid out in a perfect Roman-style square, as he says? Or was that kind of geometry typical of other fortifications? Does the style of the masonry work (the herringbone pattern) tell us anything? What is the composition of the mortar used in its construction? And was the castle of Hizan (mentioned in the Serefname) built entirely new, or was it built upon the foundation of the old Roman fort? Many questions remain. And many thanks go to you for your contribution.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-1107187036651192332011-06-04T03:16:47.392-07:002011-06-04T03:16:47.392-07:00Dear Gordon, I read your blog post with great inte...Dear Gordon, I read your blog post with great interest and I am flattered that light is shed on old mysteries by my Panoramio pictures. I have some doubt however on the supposed Roman origin of the castle of Hizan. Having read hundreds of nineteenth century travel reports, I am struck by the tendency of the old western travellers to trace back every monument they see to Antiquity, Romans or Greeks. They tend to forget the many civilizations in Eastern Anatolia/Armenia/Kurdistan that followed afterwards, and their imprint on geography and architecture. So far about my scepsis. I think the judgement of French scholar Jean-Michel Thierry, specialist on mediaeval architecture church, is of more importantance. Thierry, who is not very well known outside the small circles sharing his interests, but probably travelled more in the region than anyone else in the 20th century, remarks that the Şerefname (written in the 17th century in nearby Bitlis) states that the castle of Hizan was built in the 13th century by a Mussulman ruler. In a footnote Thierry says “Il n’y a pas lieu de retenir l’hypothèse de Dickson qui y voyait une citadelle romaine”. (“There is no place to hold to the hypothesis of Dickson who perceived it as a Roman citadel”). (J.M. Thierry, Monastères arméniens du Vaspurakan IV, in: Revue des études arméniennes ns 7 (1970) p.166). Not being an expert on architecture, I am in no position to say something definitive on these matters. But I think Thierry’s judgement is important and should not be ignored.<br />Probably the Roman castle you look for could still be found elsewhere in the region.... Turkish archeologists from nearby Van University some time ago produced a documentary on the old caravan from Lake Van to Müküş (Bahçesaray) ( http://sirtcantam.com.tr/?p=98 ) On a mountain top lies a castle that is said to be constructed by Han Mahmud (early 19th century). But what this apparently strong castle older ? Certainly in this fascinating region much more research still needs to be done.Jelle Verheijnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-62172168241131083872011-06-01T20:53:36.399-07:002011-06-01T20:53:36.399-07:00GC: The simple answer is: I don't know. But so...GC: The simple answer is: I don't know. But something is keeping those stones in place. Obviously, as is usual in ancient sites like this, the local people have been taking the stones and using them for their own purposes. Plus it seems likely that a lot of the mortar has eroded. But the stones are not just hanging in mid-air; something is making them defy gravity. Any more insights about this would be appreciated.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-26697371786232780032011-06-01T17:29:39.226-07:002011-06-01T17:29:39.226-07:00Yes, you are correct that marine limestone could b...Yes, you are correct that marine limestone could be left preserved atop mountains; it is just less likely than marble. I wasn't sure if marble could be used to make lime mortar -- obviously limestone would be easier. <br /><br />More interesting to me is your comment about the facing...Are you saying that the reason we don't see the mortar is because maybe it is UNDER the bricks, rather than between them? I read that same article before posting, but I somehow imagined it differently. <br /><br />As for the trees, the Romans were infamous for denuding forests throughout their empire, and in fact that is one theory of why they had to keep expanding. And eventually, why they fell. (though I'd say it was only one factor among many!).Samirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11082188594623962543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-31786804936937709812011-05-31T23:52:59.288-07:002011-05-31T23:52:59.288-07:00By the way, Joanne, thanks for the comment. At som...By the way, Joanne, thanks for the comment. At some time in the future I might be commenting about the refugees, but right now I'm going to talk about the remote past.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-79433988529387156022011-05-31T23:51:06.172-07:002011-05-31T23:51:06.172-07:00Thanks everyone for the comments. GeekChick (I'...Thanks everyone for the comments. GeekChick (I'd call you Geek, but I don't want to get too familiar too soon), I don't pretend to know that much about the geology of this region or the history of mortar, but I'm pretty sure that there is plenty of limestone in this region. And marble, says my encyclopedia, is "limestone composed wholly or in large part of calcite or dolomite crystals." Basically (I believe) lime mortar is made by burning limestone or marble at high heat, which causes the chemical bonds in the rock to break down. Travelers who visited Mosul in the 19th c. talked about the pall of dust that coated the city from the lime-burning operations that predominated. Remember, tectonic action does not have to produce igneous or metamorphic rocks. The summit of Everest (Everest!) is <i>marine</i> limestone. And remember the Dolomites in Italy, etc. All this burning for mortar, metallurgy, and home heating is a big reason why there are no more forests in Anatolia.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-1565922981413198832011-05-31T22:28:19.397-07:002011-05-31T22:28:19.397-07:00Great article! Two of my favorite intellectual lo...Great article! Two of my favorite intellectual loves: Turkey and Rome! I can't wait to read the subsequent parts!<br /><br />To Jeremy: Romans did indeed use mortar, beginning about the third century BC. The tower in the picture, however, does not look to me like it ever had mortar -- see how the bricks are arranged in alternating rows? I'm no expert, but to me this doesn't look like it had mortar that eroded away. My guess is that maybe they didn't have the right materials in the region for making mortar (generally volcanic ash and lime). In fact, guessing what I can from the fact that this region has been smashed by tectonic collisions, I'd say that neither of these substances is likely to be present in widespread quantities (if at all). They would have been metamorphosed into marble or whatever volcanic ash metamorphs into. <br /><br />And that concludes the nerd portion of this comment. ; )Samirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11082188594623962543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-55800012229658362062011-05-30T02:40:35.084-07:002011-05-30T02:40:35.084-07:00Beautiful photographs. I have to say my image of V...Beautiful photographs. I have to say my image of Van was entirely based in the huge number of refugees from Iraq, Iran etc. passing through the area. Will you be talking about this in later posts?Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05856396928771034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-18988646191107710632011-05-30T02:10:59.734-07:002011-05-30T02:10:59.734-07:00So cool! Why do you think that there's no mor...So cool! Why do you think that there's no mortar between the stones? Is that common in Roman fortresses, could the mortar have been worn away, or was there just no material around with which to make any?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12862169376352388965noreply@blogger.com