tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post5032661957312214893..comments2023-11-26T21:10:30.470-08:00Comments on The Pasha and the Gypsy: On the Origins of 'Istanbul'Gordon Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-77721684969306171222016-01-09T13:56:55.742-08:002016-01-09T13:56:55.742-08:00Gertjapoulis: Thank you for commenting. Please rea...Gertjapoulis: Thank you for commenting. Please read the analysis above: "The "I" at the beginning of Istanbul is definitely there for reasons of modern Turkish pronunciation, not because of some ancient Greek etymology." Lots of examples are given: Sparta became Isparta; Scutari became Uskudar; Smirni became Izmir; Skopje became Uskub; Stanchio (Kos) became Istankoy; Stamboul became Istanbul. I stand by my analysis.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-63615440756691069202016-01-08T04:01:58.818-08:002016-01-08T04:01:58.818-08:00Dear Gordon and others,
I am married into Greeknes...Dear Gordon and others,<br />I am married into Greekness, although being Dutch.<br />The Greeks, even now, call Istanbul Konstantinoupolis (not -inopolis, the "ou" comes from the genitive of Konstantinos.<br />Even for the Greeks nowadays the name is too long. Everyone says "I Polis", with the i pronounced as "ee". This is very likely where the "I" at the start of Istanbul comes from. Greeks and Turks are linked in their languages through centuries of common history.<br />So, in fact the Greeks say "The City", and everyone knows that there is only one city, the Lost One. This is not sentimental, it shows the importance of The City for all Greeks.Gertjapoulisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-91014280316449869442015-11-25T16:41:53.911-08:002015-11-25T16:41:53.911-08:00Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for your comments, whic...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />Thank you for your comments, which were quite interesting. Another Turkish example which I recently remembered: the word 'statistics' in English is 'istatistik' in Turkish. Again, Turkish speakers require an 'i' at the beginning of an 'st' word. A similar example: the ancient city of Sparta becomes 'Isparta' in Turkish.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-86272849960576081862015-11-21T17:55:38.503-08:002015-11-21T17:55:38.503-08:00I loved your post! I've always wondered about...I loved your post! I've always wondered about this, and your explanation makes the most sense to me.<br /><br />Simplification of language was one of the main goals in the 20s (literacy rate in the country was dismal, and likely even worse in the Turkish speaking population), and that the source of the new name coming from word that was "alive" rather than "dead" makes much more sense to me. Also, there were many better options/opportunities for a name, if making an ideological statement was indeed a priority.<br /><br />Regarding adding "I" to the beginning of a word: Many in our family call my mom <i>İrebi</i>, even though her name is registered as <i>Rebiye</i>, which likely derives from the Arabic <i>Rabīʿah</i>. Similarly, I've heard the name <i>Rıza</i> pronounced <i>Irıza</i> as well. I don't know how widespread these are in the Turkish-speaking world, but at least where I come from, it seems to me that the addition of "I" before words is not limited to those that start with double consonants.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-74226172280858740622014-07-17T13:29:17.499-07:002014-07-17T13:29:17.499-07:00Thanks to "nomade," and to the others wh...Thanks to "nomade," and to the others who have commented. The more I read this, the more I think it holds up. This is especially the case with initial vowels, like i, in Turkish words. The "I" at the beginning of Istanbul is definitely there for reasons of modern Turkish pronunciation, not because of some ancient Greek etymology.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-3317209261810658472014-07-17T04:23:01.589-07:002014-07-17T04:23:01.589-07:00so glad to find someone who shares, with very good...so glad to find someone who shares, with very good arguments, a view I have held for a long time. Italian (my language)has no difficulty in "feeling" that I'stanbul, when correctly pronounced as a Turkish word, is the same word as Co'stanti'nopolis (unfortunately, present-day Italians, ignoring history, tend to stress the FIRST syllable of foreign toponyms, like 'Iran, 'Irak, and, of course 'Istanbul). Thank you for your article, I hope someone will re-write the ridiculous Wikipedia explanation.nomadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11590006480057230719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-2727458958746376682011-02-05T22:57:24.425-08:002011-02-05T22:57:24.425-08:00I love it! A wonderful article, and it explains s...I love it! A wonderful article, and it explains so much to me. I wondered where some of the modern names came from, given the older and/or Greek names! <br /><br />I support your theory, and I believe modern lignuistic theory does as well. I have just listened to a fabulous lecture series by John Whorter, wherein he explains all about consonant dropping and vowel shifting - which relate directly to the explanation you offer here. <br /><br />I must say, however, you missed the obvious reference to the song by They Might be Giants ("Istanbul not Constantinople"). ; )Samirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11082188594623962543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-46637008568112713212011-01-02T06:57:54.299-08:002011-01-02T06:57:54.299-08:00We have to consider that, since the middle ages, w...We have to consider that, since the middle ages, well before turkic speaking populations reach Anatolia, 'Konstantinoupolis' was shortened by Greek speakers to 'Polis'(=City) in ordinary speech, dropping the initial 'KonSTANtinou'.<br /> The word 'Stambul' derives from 'Istanbul' not the other way around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-69753642936056227752010-08-18T00:34:34.422-07:002010-08-18T00:34:34.422-07:00Thanks, J!Thanks, J!Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-48184499742751841012010-08-17T09:38:21.087-07:002010-08-17T09:38:21.087-07:00Smart analysis.Smart analysis.Jennynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-79460184435544260402010-05-02T22:53:59.352-07:002010-05-02T22:53:59.352-07:00eileenrifkin,
Thanks for the comment, but the rena...eileenrifkin,<br />Thanks for the comment, but the renaming of Constantinople has nothing to do with the Sun Language Theory. Ataturk's flirtation with that came AFTER the name change to Istanbul. And regarding the banning of certain letters used in writing Kurdish (W, X, Q), I believe that prohibition came into effect after the Coup of 1980 (but I may be wrong). It had nothing to do with the Sun Language Theory, which, as we all know, has become pretty much a joke.Gordon Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03653661471478630086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-60473689920115218022010-05-02T19:35:29.153-07:002010-05-02T19:35:29.153-07:00This article is a revelation into Mustafa Kemal At...This article is a revelation into Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's poignant promotion of the false history of the Turkish language. The vain tenacity to change the name of Konstantinopolis and any other cities in Turkey with non-Turkish names is a prime example of Kemal's Sun Language Theory. <br /><br />As a result of the Sun Language Theory and the ideology it presents, letters used in the Kurdish language are still illegal to use in Turkey. <br /><br />(EU Turkish Progress Report 18-19)<br /><br />http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/key_documents/2009/tr_rapport_2009_en.pdf<br /><br />Thank you for sharing : )jadedorchid00https://www.blogger.com/profile/15650066275121625950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7931966923738733513.post-81713461584654805062010-05-02T04:47:05.075-07:002010-05-02T04:47:05.075-07:00As usual thoroughly interesting and informative. ...As usual thoroughly interesting and informative. Many thanks.<br /><br />srushtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com